What if we could shift the narrative around mental health at work, making it just as important a conversation as productivity or profit? Would this make our workplaces safer, more inclusive, and ultimately more successful?
In our candid discussion with Mara Grunau, Executive Director of the Centre for Suicide Prevention and Interim CEO of the Canadian Mental Health Association Alberta Division, we unravel these thought-provoking questions and delve into the harsh realities of suicide in Canada.
Mara guides us through the correlations between depression and suicide, shedding light on the stigmatized language we often use when discussing this sensitive subject. We further explore the role of the Centre for Suicide Prevention, the impact of COVID-19 on mental wellbeing, and the critical importance of fostering a culture of openness around mental health in the workplace. With Mara's insights, we delve into the profound emotional journey of those who have lost someone to suicide, the paradox faced by individuals contemplating suicide, and the media's role in suicide reporting.
In our riveting final chapter, Mara debunks some common misconceptions, responding to suicidal disclosures, and emphasizes the importance of a thoughtful, open dialogue. We highlight the resources available through the Centre for Suicide Prevention, and discuss the crucial role of professional psychologists in processing stories and pain surrounding suicide.
This is a conversation about empathy, understanding, and the power of open dialogue, that you won’t want to miss.
You can find out more about the Centre and access resources on their website at https://www.suicideinfo.ca/
Those in crisis can call 1.833.456.4566
Find our more about Wellbeing at Work's Global Summits, our Global Hub Community of C-Suite executives and our Bespoke division at wellbeingatwork.world
What if we could shift the narrative around mental health at work, making it just as important a conversation as productivity or profit? Would this make our workplaces safer, more inclusive, and ultimately more successful?
In our candid discussion with Mara Grunau, Executive Director of the Centre for Suicide Prevention and Interim CEO of the Canadian Mental Health Association Alberta Division, we unravel these thought-provoking questions and delve into the harsh realities of suicide in Canada.
Mara guides us through the correlations between depression and suicide, shedding light on the stigmatized language we often use when discussing this sensitive subject. We further explore the role of the Centre for Suicide Prevention, the impact of COVID-19 on mental wellbeing, and the critical importance of fostering a culture of openness around mental health in the workplace. With Mara's insights, we delve into the profound emotional journey of those who have lost someone to suicide, the paradox faced by individuals contemplating suicide, and the media's role in suicide reporting.
In our riveting final chapter, Mara debunks some common misconceptions, responding to suicidal disclosures, and emphasizes the importance of a thoughtful, open dialogue. We highlight the resources available through the Centre for Suicide Prevention, and discuss the crucial role of professional psychologists in processing stories and pain surrounding suicide.
This is a conversation about empathy, understanding, and the power of open dialogue, that you won’t want to miss.
You can find out more about the Centre and access resources on their website at https://www.suicideinfo.ca/
Those in crisis can call 1.833.456.4566
Find our more about Wellbeing at Work's Global Summits, our Global Hub Community of C-Suite executives and our Bespoke division at wellbeingatwork.world
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Well Conversations on Wellbeing at Work, the podcast produced by Wellbeing at Work World. You can find out more about us at wellbeingatworkworld. This podcast features speakers from upcoming events. In addition to the events, we also have a global hub which has got a bunch of information about a workplace well-being around the world. We do bespoke offerings as well, and webinars as well as summits in, I think, pretty much nearly every continent except Antarctica. I don't think we're planning anything there anytime soon, but you never know. There's always something new going on at wellbeing at work, so we're joined today by Mara Grunel. She's the Executive Director of the Centre for Suicide Prevention and also the Interim CEO of the Canadian Mental Health Association Alberta Division. So welcome, mara. Great to see you.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, john, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1:Now you're going to be speaking at our Calgary Summit on September 28th I believe in a panel session there but today's conversation is going to focus in on your role with suicide prevention and, as with all our guests on this show, we do start with just a brief check-in to see how you're doing. So how's life for Mara right now?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm doing well. Thank you for asking. I'm just back from holidays, so my brain feels refreshed and it's a beautiful sunny day, and I had a great sleep last night, so today is a good day.
Speaker 1:Good. Well, I'm glad we've caught you at a good time. So I think perhaps before we begin, or to begin our conversation, perhaps you could tell us about the Centre for Suicide Prevention and your work there, and then we can talk a little bit about the sort of context for the prevalence of suicide who's most affected by it here in Canada and then we'll talk a little bit more about the workplace and how managers and colleagues can support folk who are struggling. So if you tell us, begin by a little bit about your work and the organisation.
Speaker 2:Sure, thank you. So Centre for Suicide Prevention is a branch of the Canadian Mental Health Association and we've been doing this work since 1981, so we've been around for quite some time and we call ourselves CSP. And CSP is an education centre because when we're looking at trying to effect social change, education is the best practice, and that holds true in suicide prevention. There aren't a lot of best practices in suicide prevention, but there are some, and one of them is education. So we gather all the primary literature around suicide and its prevention that we can from around the world and we hold the largest English language collection of suicide-related material so nearly 50,000 items in our library, and we take that information and we synthesise it into pieces that people can use in their everyday work, so publications, toolkits, social media, blogs, web resources and also workshop content. And we also broker workshops from a company called Living Works and we offer training as well as knowledge-based workshops in suicide prevention and intervention and unfortunately also we do offer some bereavement work as well.
Speaker 1:Can you give us a sense of the scale of the problem here in Canada in terms of numbers and maybe which groups of people are most susceptible to death by suicide?
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So in Canada, annually over 4,000 people, probably over 4,500 people, died by suicide every year. Now, social science data is tricky because and suicide is no exception we will never know exactly how many deaths are by suicide, partly because of our classification system and partly because sometimes we just don't know. So researchers suggest that that number is low, but that is the number that we have and the number that we use. The good news in Canada is that that number has been relatively stable. Not that that's good, but I mean it's not increasing and it's over, like over the long term. So over the last couple of decades we have seen a slight decline. So again, with the social science data, we don't want to look just at one year against one year against one year. We want to look at the series, because it's going to go like this obviously. So you want that kind of gradual, fast fit line, so you want to back up from it. So over time the suicide rate in Canada has been slightly declining.
Speaker 1:Okay, so is there any? I mean, I know, I know often here it said that men are more susceptible than women. That's, that's the case, right.
Speaker 2:That is the case and we call it the gender paradox, which might be dated language now that we talk about gender fluidity, but in historical terms we called it the gender paradox because women attempt suicide far more often than men and then died by suicide far more often than women. So three out of four deaths by suicide are male in Canada and in most places in the world, and there are a number of reasons for that. But to be important thing to know is that it doesn't have to be that way and there are lots of things we can do to prevent suicide and to get people the help they need when they need it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you mentioned you're part of the Canadian Mental Health Association. There's a strong correlation, I understand, between depression and suicide. I picked up a stat yesterday people with depression were 20 times more likely to die by suicide than I think. I was a global figure, but that's generally true as well, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, researchers would suggest that most people who die by suicide are battling or experiencing some sort of mental illness, with depression being the most common. However, it's not the converse, isn't true? Just, you know, not everybody who experiences mental illness, including depression, also experiences suicide ideation. So one way it's true, but the other way it isn't.
Speaker 1:I mean one thing it does share with with, with with depression has come, is is obviously a strong sense of stigma and I noticed that. You know, as we're speaking, you know we're referring certainly from my point of view, sort of very consciously to death by suicide. I still hear occasionally people mention, actually occasionally, quite often refer to committing suicide. I mean, there's a part of your education component is to try and reduce that, that stigma around, around the issue.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. We know that open conversation around difficult topics helps to dispel myths and reduce stigma, and you know, we can think of all kinds of tricky topics in our, in our culture, and suicide is just one of many. But but we don't. We want to shy away from language like commit, because it's not a crime. People are not committing something. You know that has criminal connotations to it, so we use the terms died by suicide or ended their own life.
Speaker 1:Well, I know this is an issue, that that that sort of emerges particularly around times when there are celebrities who die by suicide and I know, obviously last week, you know, shnader Conn had died and there's speculation around the cause of that. But I'm thinking of, like you know and you know, and that Anthony Bordam and Robin Williams and others, and I know there's often like real surprise. I mean I think you know, I think I think around as you pull down, you think someone who has this perfect, perfect life. Right, I mean, what could be better than traveling the world in great food, I mean interesting people, and having your own TV show? I mean it's not like there's a what is it that there are? There are sort of clear signs that you can, you can see that that sort of should have you, you concerned if you're a loved one or a or a boss or a colleague or somebody.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So most of the time and again, when we're talking about people, we can just speak in general generalities and in trends, because of course everybody is different. But most of the time there are signs or indicators. We call them invitations that people put out when they're considering suicide. The catch is we're not always attuned to those invitations. We don't necessarily see them for what they are and we hear from people who are bereaved by suicide, so people who have lost somebody to suicide, that their hindsight is 20, 20, not everybody. Sometimes, you know, people don't see that and many people contend that there were no signs with their loved ones.
Speaker 2:Research would suggest that there usually are signs. Of course, nothing's 100%. So you know, when we, when we're concerned about somebody, things we might be watching for are significant changes in behavior. That's probably the biggest leg. So you know, the classic would be someone becomes withdrawn or irritable, but the opposite can be true as well. Right, they may become overstimulated or overengaging because they're trying to sort out all the feelings and emotions inside of them.
Speaker 2:Again, the classic ones around you know not taking care of themselves. So you know, if their self-care isn't, isn't happening, so in terms of physical appearance, they might have to shoveled. Or you know, they've just either lost perspective or they just don't care to care for themselves at all. You know, another classic one is giving away possessions. Oh, I really want you to have this thing.
Speaker 2:That is very meaningful and important to me, you know, and these are all kinds of invitations for us to stop and say, oh, like you know, I know that that watch was given to you by your grandfather. I know that that's very important to you. Why would you want to give that to me? Or you know what's going on. Or you know, like those are, those are kind of on ramps to conversations that we need to take advantage of. And I think often especially in Canadian culture, but other cultures too we often kind of sit back and think, oh, that's weird, but it's cutting under my business. And I would say, no, it is your business. If you're in a relationship with that person. Ask them. Most people like talking about themselves, most people welcome personal questions. So step in and say like, hey, I'm so honored you would choose me, but why, like, what's going on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you refer those to those sort of encounters as invitations. I've not. I've not come across that, that term, in this context. Just to clarify are you saying that that that someone who's contemplating suicide is consciously looking for a way of addressing that without actually having to come out and say, hey, honey, I, you know, I'm having these feelings, is that? Is that what you're saying, or not? Just to be clear.
Speaker 2:No, that's what I'm saying, though I'm not so sure that it's always conscious. But oftentimes, when things are bothering us, it doesn't have to be suicide. It could be something, you know, much more mundane, but it is, you know, picking away at our brain and not leaving us alone. We often seek out somebody because we want to talk about it, we want to get it off our chest or we want to verbalize it. But often what we do is we kind of test the waters first to see, like, is this person listening? Are they paying attention, or are they just going to tell me what to do? And so, you know, we might put out some feelers to see, you know, what the strength of the relationship is or what the person's response is.
Speaker 2:So if I put out, you know, a comment like, oh, you know, john, like thanks for dropping that off for me, but like it's not going to matter, soon it's not going to matter anymore Anyhow, so I'm not going to need that. You know, thanks for bringing your lawn more by, but like soon it's not going to matter, I'm not going to need that anymore, and you might be like, okay, that's weird, but what I'm looking for you to say is oh, like, are you not? Are you going to, like outsource your lawn care? Like why won't you need that? Like what's going on for you? And then I might kind of push back a little bit more and say, oh yeah, nothing, you know what. Shouldn't have brought it up, it's not a big deal. Oh well, I'm interested. You know, I've got time, what's going on? And that that sends a message of trust and a message of care and a message of listening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean just describing this. I think it's kind of interesting that there's sort of interactions that people have. Obviously, you know, one of the other. I mean, when the other issues that you know we'll be talking about the event and we'll probably be having a podcast on it, hopefully have a podcast on it at some point is around human connection and people's relationships with, with, with, with, with others, and there's there's a, you know, which was about sort of depression being an indicator of, of or or a risk factor for, for, for suicide. Presumably loneliness is as well. Right, there's that that that can be a real, real challenge for people, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And and I can connect some of those concepts together with what your your earlier question around what can we do at work? Yes, but but in our personal lives as well. Right, it's having authentic conversations with the people in our lives. And if we can have connections that support authentic conversations, then when something isn't quite right, it's it's not easy I don't want to say it's easy to broach because it's not, but the foundation has been laid that it's. It's not as big a gulf to bridge, I suppose, to have a difficult conversation. So if you're only ever having surfacey conversations with people and then you notice something's wrong, that's a big jump. To then say I'm concerned about you. But if you're always having or not always but if you make the point of going deeper in your relationships, you're really forging those connections. It lays the groundwork to have the difficult conversations when you need to.
Speaker 1:Which I suppose was something that's quite surprised when you mentioned earlier on that the sort of figures were quite stable year over year. Because you would, I would have thought that the sort of isolation that's come with COVID might have contributed to an uptick, but that's not been the case. Or is your data? Your data is sufficiently up to date to make that judgment right For the data we have to date.
Speaker 2:That's not the case Now. What we did see during COVID was more Canadians, or people in Canada, reporting greater levels of mental unwellness. So the Canadian Mental Health Association National Office, together with University of British Columbia, ran a study throughout COVID where they kind of, at different points in time, surveyed Canadians, and during COVID, especially when there were a lot of restrictions in place, people were reporting higher levels of unwellness, higher substance use, lower mood, higher anxiety, all those, all those outcomes, but at greater levels of suicide ideation. We also know from the crisis line data that there were way higher volumes of crisis calls that came in, and the majority of crisis calls are around suicide ideation as well. However, that did not materialize into deaths. So if we want to talk about the good news story here, it's that people are more open to talking about being mentally unwell. They're more open to talking to others about it. There's more help seeking going on while people are unwell, but well enough to still seek help, and those are all good news stories.
Speaker 1:Yes, but it remains. It remains a certainly is, I think, encouraging in many ways, but certainly in the context of the workplace it's a difficult. I mean having a conversation about depression is hard enough in the workplace or anxiety or that but suicide. So I mean how I mean? Firstly, I mean, are there any you mentioned certain sort of signs that someone may be maybe struggling? I mean, are there any things specifically sort of work related that managers should maybe look out to? And how can, how can someone broach that kind of conversation with someone?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think it kind of goes back to what we were talking about before in terms of setting the stage, and I think like an important thing that we've, I think we've come to terms with in our society is that people bring their whole selves to work. So we've had an era of, you know, you leave your personal stuff at the door, you're at work, you focus on work and then you know, you pick up your personal stuff on your way home. But we know that that's not actually ever possible. If something is looming at home, it affects us, no matter where we are, and vice versa. So, yeah, lots of us know how stress at work affects our homeless. It goes both ways.
Speaker 2:So things that managers can do is set up a culture of safety, so a place where people feel like they can be their authentic selves, that they're not going to be punished or looked over for promotions, for instance, or, you know, disadvantaged in any way if they're upfront with how their mental health is on a day to day basis. You know there's I'm not overly familiar so I'm a little bit leery to kind of get into this, but I'll give it as an example where in some workplaces, especially workplaces that in heavy industry they do drug testing and at the point of hiring, you know they may ask the potential employees. You know, do you use illegal substances? Tell us now and we're not going to penalize you, but we're going to work with you towards recovery. But if you fail a drug test, if you don't tell us and you fail a drug test, you'll be terminated on the spot, right.
Speaker 2:And so that kind of gives us opportunity of people to be upfront and honest and to be able to seek help because they know they're not going to be stigmatized. Well, I mean, I guess they don't know they're not going to be stigmatized, but they know that it's not going to come down on them in terms of workplace performance. So how can we do that with mental health? How can we create a culture where, when people come to the workplace, they have a culture or a manager who understands that we're not ourselves every single day, we're not 100% knocking out of the park performers every single day. That's normal. And how can we support people when they are less than themselves or they feel like they're having a day of deterioration? How can we support them to get them back to where where they can be and promote their wellness on a regular basis.
Speaker 1:Bit of a sidebar there. I'm glad you drew a distinction between stigma and performance around around that case, this around addiction, because I think that was obviously that those often get kind of confused. You know you could have a situation where you have some depression and there may not be stigma attached, that within your, within the, within the culture or within the group that you work, but you could still be penalized for it in a performance sense. And I think it's sometimes it helps to think, to make that distinction and so I appreciate that. So it's a lot of this is a sort of a cultural thing in terms of the, that, that sort of openness and again, that sort of somewhat more meaningful connection that people need to have in the workplace versus just a sort of transactional work. It's a traditional, traditional kind of work kind of piece.
Speaker 2:So and the HR literature corroborates it right. We know that when people feel safe and well, their work performance goes up. So, as an employer, you actually you know you get better outcomes. So why wouldn't you invest in your people to you know, help to set them up for success?
Speaker 1:So I want to say, maybe move a little bit on and on, and it's a prompted, I think, by this notion of invitations that you mentioned earlier. I'm kind of intrigued by that a bit, in a way that I mean the other issue which also comes up you know, at work, if, if you know, god forbid there has been someone who's who's died by suicide, there's going to be dizzying array of emotions on the part of the people who are left. You know one of them will be. You know there may be anger, obviously, a feeling of loss, but also guilt. And if they, if they're, you know, like you say that hindsight is 2020, people are going to look at I should have, I should have done something, I should have seen what was there, what, what would you say to that, those feelings.
Speaker 2:They're all normal. Those are all normal feelings guilt, shame, anger, blaming, serrating yourself All of those are normal responses to suicide, loss and and what people need to know if you, if you have a reach, why suicide? If you have experienced a loss, is that it's not your fault and you know we do everything we can to prevent suicide and suicides are preventable. However, people also die. Both of those things are true and they can both be true at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, it's odd thing. Again, I'm I'm just I'm speculating here and so forgive me. There's a sort of paradox that, the one hand, you've got people who are, who are offering up things in order to encourage people to ask them and to connect with them and to you know, so they can open up at the same time as they're also working very hard to hide how they feel or any planning they might be engaged in. I mean, there's a there's a paradox. There isn't there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there can be. I mean, most people who die by suicide die alone. And so you know, and and I think sometimes we don't really like, if we stop and think about it, I think it makes sense for most people. But the suicides that are reported in the media, of course, are public. The media doesn't report suicide because we don't want a contagion effect, we don't want to encourage it or or promote suicide. However, if there's a very public suicide something, somebody has to say something because arguably there were a number of witnesses.
Speaker 2:But but if we think about that, that most people who are considering suicide and attempt suicide are doing so alone and they're alone often they feel alone on every front. Whether they are or not, isn't really the point. When somebody is experiencing suicide, ideation their vision constricts right, they start to get tunnel vision and as the ideation intensifies, their vision restricts more and more and more, and it's because they're in deep psychological pain and what they want is to get out of the pain. And as their vision narrows, the only way they can see out of their pain is death. Now, if we're not experiencing that intensity of psychological pain, we can see all kinds of alternatives, and that's why intervention works. And so if someone's putting out an invitation and we take the time to have a gentle, open, non-judgmental, just hard we all like to judge non-judgmental conversation that's where the intervention can come in. And so when we talk to them, oh sorry, go ahead, john. John Greenewald.
Speaker 1:No, no, keep going.
Speaker 2:Dr Judy, that's what we need to kind of go in specifically and say you know, I know you've got these things going on in your life and I'm concerned about you. Sometimes, when people are facing these kinds of pressures, they consider suicide Are you thinking about suicide? And if you can say the word, they don't have to and it takes that burden off of them and then all they have to do is say yes or no. And research shows that if you ask, people will be honest.
Speaker 1:Most people will answer that question honestly, john Greenewald, yeah, because I think that's such a song I'm. One of the things I want is just to have a little piece before we conclude around some of the sort of myths that people, you know, force, police behind a suicide and again I'm semi-spectulating here One of those is that, you know, by mentioning it to someone, you're going to put the idea into their head, right, dr Judy, that they're, you know, they might be depressed. Or suddenly you make sure there's suicide. I think, oh, oh, I hadn't thought of that, I should, yeah, which I mean, you know, put like that sounds, really sounds quite ridiculous, but that is almost what people think. So that was one thing I pitched. But the other thing that I've also heard is that there's a difference between you know, thinking about it in the abstract and making plans. So it's that question that are you? That's the key question, isn't it? Have you, are you making concrete plans around this? Is that, is that a Dr Judy?
Speaker 1:That would be the next question Dr Judy yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, for sure. So if you ask somebody and they say, yeah, you know what I have been thinking about suicide and you want to thank them for their candor and thank you for trusting me and telling me, you know I really value you and their relationship, and then you know, let that kind of breathe a bit and then just say, tell me a bit more. Like what are you thinking? Do you have a plan? And you can engage that, that line of questioning. Next, you want to be very gentle, you don't want it to be like the third degree kind of questioning, right, you want to give lots of space and what people need to know is it's not your job to fix it. Because you know people say, well, I'm not the therapist, I don't know what to say. Not your job to fix it, you can't fix it. Okay, like it's, that's not it.
Speaker 2:And we want to leave the person's agency intact. It's, they are, you know, individuals. We don't want to infantize them, we don't want to. You know, take that over, call the crisis line together and hand it over to the crisis line. You just need to be a friend, you just need to listen. And in Canada our crisis line is called talk suicide. And it's a very long number 1-833-456-4566. But come November 30, it will be 988. So just three quick digit dialing. Yeah, yeah Well and thank you.
Speaker 1:We'll put that number in the notes for the podcast. The longer one, great. So we will have that, and I wanted to just want to talk a little bit about some of the resources available. Glad you mentioned that line, but are there any other, any other sort of commonly held beliefs around suicide that we should just sort of put out there and say that that's wrong? Anything else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. I think there's still the prevailing belief that people die by suicide because they're selfish or because they're trying to you know, get back at somebody. You know it's a vengeful or revengeful act. None of that is true. When somebody is in the throes of suicidality, they're not thinking oh, you know, my kids are going to miss me or my partner is going to like no. All they're thinking is I got to get out of this pain. This pain is debilitating. I have to get out of this pain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you mentioned about the, about this. We sort of think about the reporting. This idea that there's a sort of a contagion by talking again, by talking about it, is something that I should also think people you know, maybe I know it used to be, you know you would never be mentioned in the media, not at all. And now there's, there's a bit more openness, providing it's dealt with properly, right.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. It's not that we don't want to talk about it, we just don't want to romanticize it or sensationalize it. But open, thoughtful discord around suicide is critical for stigma reduction and it helps people because they think that they're the only one. I am the only one who feels this way. I am the only one. Well, you know, you're not that special, I hate to tell you. Lots of people experience suicide ideation and if we talk more about it, then we can address that more specifically.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So you mentioned the help line. What other resources would you, where else would you point people for in terms of to find out more about this or, if they've, you know, if anyone's listening wants help, where can they turn?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can definitely come to our website, which is suicideinfoca, and all the resources on our website are free of charge. It's all evidence-based, it's all researched and vetted. You can download any of them for free. We've got tons of information on there. But if you or someone you know is thinking about suicide, then call Talk Suicide and you can text and chat them as well. So you can go to TalkSuicideca and get the information for texting and chatting also.
Speaker 1:Okay, great, so with that, we're effective out of time. So, but thank you, I'd really appreciate you joining us to talk about this, this very difficult issue, and I think that it does highlight just how important the work everyone does in the areas of wellbeing and mental health and obviously I'm involved in the event business around mental health at work, because for some people, the sorts of things that people, organizations, do will literally be life-saving.
Speaker 1:And I think that's something we should emphasize. So thank you for the work you do and for being here and, before I let you go, you've got a tough gig you're involved in there, which must be quite, at times quite exhausting emotionally. What do you do to keep yourself on track and keep your own sort of wellbeing front and centre? Is there one thing that you'd recommend Our listeners maybe emulate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think like hopefully, we're just about done dispelling the myth that you need to be the hero. One thing that we do on our team is we have quite a distributive decision-making team, distributive leadership, and we debrief with each other a lot. We also have psychologists on contract with us, because oftentimes not just me but my staff when we're out at events, we will do interventions with people. When you work in the field, people kind of see you as a safe person and so strangers will come up and start to tell you stories and you can go home holding a lot of stories and a lot of pain. So we definitely have strategies not just strategies, but mechanisms where we debrief with each other and that we bring in professional help to support us as well. So we do our best to not hold it all ourselves but to share that Well, thank, you and I look forward to seeing you.
Speaker 1:It's only a few weeks now till. September 28th in Calgary, you'll be getting an email later today about setting up a call, because we want to get everyone together to I think, the topic is going to be, I think I should note it's around psychological safety, I think, and so your input will be most valuable in that. But I'm glad that we got this opportunity to do a bit of a deeper dive, specifically around the suicide prevention, because it's so important.
Speaker 1:So thank you and thanks to our listeners and I say see you in a few weeks in Calgary. Thank, you.