It's not often when hosting or listening to a podcast I learn a new word. Yet our conversation begins in this episode with a discussion of the idea of "monachopsis" which I had not heard before my conversation with Dr Mark Brown a few weeks ago. Monachopsis describes a particular feeling of not belonging that is way more common than you might think. You might even experience it....
Our conversation quickly turns to exploring the transformative power of belonging as our guest unravels the psychology behind feeling in sync with your workplace—or the distress of falling out. Our enlightening exchange promises to equip you with the tools to navigate the complex terrains of workplace well-being and connection, as Dr. Brown illuminates the effects of monachopsis—a pervasive sense of not fitting in—and its profound influence on both individuals and teams. Drawing on his rich military experience, we discuss both the close-knit camaraderie of the Marine Corps and the deep, sometimes elusive sense of belonging that is essential for success for any team.
As we traverse the critical role of human connections and peer support at work, Dr. Brown offers invaluable strategies to combat the loneliness that plagues many modern workplaces.
We dissect the current state of the diversity movement, acknowledging the pushback and discussing how to cultivate an inclusive culture that goes beyond initiatives to foster true belonging. Delving into the intertwined concepts of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, this episode serves as a guide for leaders and individuals alike seeking to create environments where every team member thrives, both professionally and personally, shaping a more effective and healthy organization.
Find our more about Wellbeing at Work's Global Summits, our Global Hub Community of C-Suite executives and our Bespoke division at wellbeingatwork.world
It's not often when hosting or listening to a podcast I learn a new word. Yet our conversation begins in this episode with a discussion of the idea of "monachopsis" which I had not heard before my conversation with Dr Mark Brown a few weeks ago. Monachopsis describes a particular feeling of not belonging that is way more common than you might think. You might even experience it....
Our conversation quickly turns to exploring the transformative power of belonging as our guest unravels the psychology behind feeling in sync with your workplace—or the distress of falling out. Our enlightening exchange promises to equip you with the tools to navigate the complex terrains of workplace well-being and connection, as Dr. Brown illuminates the effects of monachopsis—a pervasive sense of not fitting in—and its profound influence on both individuals and teams. Drawing on his rich military experience, we discuss both the close-knit camaraderie of the Marine Corps and the deep, sometimes elusive sense of belonging that is essential for success for any team.
As we traverse the critical role of human connections and peer support at work, Dr. Brown offers invaluable strategies to combat the loneliness that plagues many modern workplaces.
We dissect the current state of the diversity movement, acknowledging the pushback and discussing how to cultivate an inclusive culture that goes beyond initiatives to foster true belonging. Delving into the intertwined concepts of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, this episode serves as a guide for leaders and individuals alike seeking to create environments where every team member thrives, both professionally and personally, shaping a more effective and healthy organization.
Find our more about Wellbeing at Work's Global Summits, our Global Hub Community of C-Suite executives and our Bespoke division at wellbeingatwork.world
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Conversations on Wellbeing at Work. The regular podcast will be featured speakers and experts from various of our conferences and summits around the world at Wellbeing at Work host. My name is John Brewer. I'm a member of a passionate global team working on the summits in eight regions around the globe. We also have a C-suite community that we host online on a hub and through a spoke division, working on tailored interventions and workshops for organisations. We do a number of webinars throughout the year, and so please do check us out on our website, wellbeingatworkworld. I'd like to welcome.
Speaker 1:Our guest here today is Dr Mark Brown. He's the founder of Monocopsis Management Strategies and he's going to be speaking about the panel and event coming up in New York. In the lower amount Prior to that, he does come to this issue of diversity and being with 26 years of invaluable experience in the Marine Corps, and the panel he's going to be on is called Putting Belonging and Social Connection at the Heart of being and DEI. So thank you very much, mark, for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Thank you for having me, john. So I'd like to begin our conversation because I know when I came across you a few months ago, I was intrigued by this term, monocopsis, as it relates very strongly to the issue of belonging, and I came across a definition from a dictionary of obscure sorrows which described it as the subtle but persistent feeling of being out of place, like a seal stranded on a beach. Is that an accurate definition?
Speaker 2:That is an accurate definition. As a matter of fact, that is where I go to when I start to think about how to work with people and feel like they don't belong.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot of I know you mentioned when we were trying before. It's a bit like being I think the common term would be like being a fish out of water. Would that be an accurate description?
Speaker 2:Yes, and how I came about the term was when I was doing my dissertation years ago. Professor Stephen J Gravelat wrote in the Employee Relations Law Journal a series of four articles why I feel like a fish out of water, or monocopsis, or one four, and that's how I can call it the term, and it was very intriguing to me in this year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I think there are other terms I hear occasionally which relate to not feeling a strong sense of belonging. One of the more common ones is imposter syndrome, and that's something obviously you're familiar with that.
Speaker 2:I am, yes, I'm familiar with it and I think imposter syndrome is corporeal related. Definitely not the same they are. Both can be affected by external factors, but process syndrome is slightly different. Belonging is a feeling that can be ground from the inside and produced from the outside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that sense of imposter syndrome I know it's not a term that I mean some people kind of, I think, certainly to eject to even the use of the term. But this idea that you're not qualified in that way to be in the role that you're in, which is different from just not feeling you belong in a group, exactly, and it's also different to. Introversion is another thing we hear a lot about. People can be introverted, so sort of they're not terribly keen on social situations or maybe feel uncomfortable in them.
Speaker 2:But again, that's not the same as right Infraversion, usually them from the inside. Monocops is from the inside, can't be from the inside, and definitely from external factors as well. So people can make you feel like you don't belong and you can feel like you don't belong.
Speaker 1:It's how common is that is it is it?
Speaker 2:some monocops. Yes, it's better common in all efforts that are left. Anyone can feel monocops we're talking about in terms of workplace, but you can feel monocops is out of far. You can feel monocops is at work. You can feel monocops is in church and if you feel it in church, something is definitely wrong. You need to find me church problem.
Speaker 1:And this I mean so tied in with this notion of belonging. It is very central, I think, to discussions we're having nowadays, both about diversity and inclusion and equity and also about well-being. So on the sort of well-being side of things, how big an impact does this sense of not belonging have on people's well-being and performance in organizations? Belong is very important.
Speaker 2:As I discussed in several of my presentations, the Mayo Clinic states that all aspects of our lives are ruled by wanting to be connected and to belong to other things. Our lives are basically revolver on that and when we look at our mavelos hierarchy, or knee-fermage, it's right there in a little love and belonging, very important.
Speaker 1:And so perhaps we could cast our minds back a little bit to I mentioned just referenced briefly, your experience with the Marine Corps prior to entering into business and consulting. Is that an environment that puts a high premium on belonging? That's very sort of belonging-driven, I would imagine it is.
Speaker 2:Belonging is a word. The Marine Corps is basically one team work. But team doesn't necessarily mean belonging. Belonging can you have to feel belonging. Belonging is the field. So if they don't make you feel like you belong then it's going to be detrimental to your mission and Marine Corps is pretty much all about accomplishing the mission. So team work and belonging are two different things.
Speaker 1:So you could have people feel quite strongly as a team. That doesn't necessarily mean they all feel they belong.
Speaker 2:Exactly Every part of the team does their job, but if you don't feel like you belong, you're probably not doing the best of your ability, and that's the answer.
Speaker 1:So in that regard, belonging is in a sense a sort of something that actually improves the performance of a team.
Speaker 2:Definitely Longing inclusion. All those things are things that make you perform better, to make you a better team member, to make you help accomplish the mission in a way that you should.
Speaker 1:So as you move from being part of the military and obviously 26 years is a long time to devote to that sort of environment and that's a big commitment around your work as you move from that out of the military, out of the Marine Corps, did you feel that sense of not belonging. How did that?
Speaker 2:feel Transition from the Marine Corps to civilian life was a lot easier for them to feel like. Ever long in the civilian life there were external factors when I got out and being say okay, do I really belong here? In the Marine Corps it's slightly different. There's a hierarchy and then there's a kind of a caste system. So some people are like the bombs, some people are like the top and you have to be able to navigate that with order, as being servicemen, as being something. But it is still part of the world.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, it's such a little bit early on notion of belonging and diversity. Obviously, there's a caste system that operates in the workplace. Isn't there? We may not label it.
Speaker 2:There's gossips in. The goal is to for our leaders to provide psychologically safe space so that everybody feels like they belong and that everybody contributes, while falling into a system that affects their mental and physical being.
Speaker 1:You mentioned then about being in a team and the link between being in a team and having an outcome that you worked for that there was an output to that which was delivering on a mission in the US military parlance, and that's the same at work, in the sense that if you want to belong, having a purpose, that is important to that as well.
Speaker 2:Always having a purpose is important, and when I talk about belonging, I talk about the three action needs of belonging. The first one is comfort Am I valued at the organization I'm with? Connect, am I part of something? Lord and contribution do I have value to the organization?
Speaker 1:So, as a leader of a team, you mentioned about the importance of psychological safety, which obviously again is linked to the notion of belonging. As a leader, your role in part is to create those three that comfort, the connection and that contribution within the team.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and it is the leader's responsibility. Because of the power dynamic that they have, leaders are in charge. People follow the leader. They don't usually follow the junior employee, so he is responsible for setting the colder inclinement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that obviously links very strongly to. As I find, often when talking about belonging you tend to go off on a path that follows either I'm having my diversity and belonging conversation. Now there is that incredible link into well-being. I know that the recent report I say recently, it was probably almost a year ago now by the surgeon general in the US and quoting that stat that I think we've all seen about it being lonely is like smoking 15 cigarettes a day. I saw something on the day which said the single biggest impact on longevity is your human connection. So that's the huge well-being element to this.
Speaker 2:Definitely. But yeah, when you don't feel like you belong, there will be no stress on you. In turn, there is allocetic load, which means that you know you feel like you don't belong, but there are physical and mental parts that come down and affect your overall well-being.
Speaker 1:If you are experiencing monocopsis, so this is a persistent being out of place. What's the response to that? As an individual, how can you get yourself out of that place?
Speaker 2:There is a lot to create connections. You can get around and then you have people, have input to what you're trying to do and how you fall into a place in your own vision. You can also have developed strategies. What we find is that if you come up with strategies yourself, you can also give those strategies of people and they might uplift those strategies. People in higher vision and always one ally allies been always told yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, which again is obviously a big part of diversity, diverse issues and, as you, just I'm thinking about someone I know here in Canada, I've worked with in the past, who used to be with it was ex-military was. He was a lieutenant colonel in the in the Canadian forces and served in in Rwanda and and Afghanistan and experienced sort of quite a residual trauma and he's a big advocate for peer, peer support. That feeling that if you're having gone through the kind of Experiences that he went through, it's often very you often do feel disconnected from others because they don't people who haven't had a similar experience. So, as a real value in seeking it is that. What is that I'm assuming is a real value in seeking out people with similar experiences in order to sort of network with them in and connect with them in a workplace scenario?
Speaker 2:right. Exactly during my time in the military, we didn't have ERG and family groups and business work groups. Well, we'd make together talk about the problems that we will have. But we did have informed groups. So we sat down and talked about hey, how can I help you move forward? So, probably an ally being responsible for other people under an individual Helps you get through those times. We don't feel like you're born, yeah.
Speaker 1:And there are times it's interesting that you mentioned Part of belonging is being this notion of comfort. One of the things we hear quite often in in a business environment Is that need to get out of your comfort zone, which I think people generally tend to apply to One's abilities that stretch your abilities to do, do things that are maybe beyond your comfort, around around your activities. But there is a value to Maybe it was their value to getting into those places where maybe you don't feel you belong and that and create belonging for yourself with and encourage people to make you feel you belong.
Speaker 2:Right, the comfort aspect is Do I feel like I belong here? Am I valued at this organization? Now, when you move up and you start learning new things, starting out, it becomes the. That's always a great thing, but you also have to keep in mind that there are other people out there who've gone through this but help you move through it without making you feel like you don't belong Right.
Speaker 1:So there's a, there would be a. That would be a case for sort of mentorship coaching To ease you into unfamiliar situations with unfamiliar people.
Speaker 2:Starting with allies. Your mentorship and coaching all of those things help you move forward. We can talk about not feeling comfort. We're not talking about Missions or job, talking about the overall being of that person in that work, and there's a distinct difference between.
Speaker 1:Belonging and this notion of fitting in. Well, definitely fitting in is.
Speaker 2:A term that we've used to have somebody who really is opposite of what you want. But we want to squeeze that where circle and to that, that round circle, to that square face. Belonging is not like that. Longing is just coming in feeling like you belong and having people on outside watch it to go.
Speaker 1:So when you're, when you're working with clients, with organization, with employers, one things I noticed is that Some issues it's a mental health and well-being issues have become much more Acceptable to talk about in in environments that people will openly admit to sort of experience in depression or anxiety, etc. Loneliness, that sort of absence of belonging is something that people don't. Did you find people reluctant to talk about it, or is it becoming more of a? Some of the stigma being being put Be removed and we have our leaders who believe in psychologically safe spacing.
Speaker 2:They give people opportunities to talk about how they feel, what they're going through. You want to people to talk about what they're going through. You want to people to understand that going through things is not the end of be all. It is a part of being for no envision and there are people who go good for you.
Speaker 1:And well, I'll use I've come across lately Relating to diversity is there? Just, I'd be very interested in your, your perspective, as I'm I'm based in Canada, so I do the US through a bit of a strange lens. There's clearly quite a lot of, clearly quite a lot of so pushback against diversity right now the somehow I was chatting to someone today that was a potential speaker who was from an up from Florida, and they're saying in Florida, where they were working, they don't use the word diversity anymore. In the mirror from their title, what it was Is diver. Is the diversity movement going through? We don't belong here moment. Do you think you?
Speaker 2:I think the diversity movement has always been here and it's just. It's cool. Right now is on the down phase. We've gone through these movements. It wasn't always called diversity, or we went through this one Immunteriors, killed in the 50s, we weren't in there, squarner, goodman and Cheney in the 60s but always go through the eggs and bloats of the diversity movement. It's just, but it has. It's got a re-comer out again. So right now we're just on a down slope, but it's still four, four, four from the everybody's mind and what we need to do is move from initiative versus initiative, integrating diversity within a whole world innovation which is Precisely what we're trying to do with, with well-being at work world.
Speaker 1:In terms of well-being, that it's no longer about, you know, doing some mindfulness here and some yoga there and lunch and learn, but really baking into the to the culture of the organization run for teaching, planning and sister making sure all be report.
Speaker 2:Oh the verses. Should you pour up all of it.
Speaker 1:Yes and yeah I, but it does seem to me and I don't want to, don't want to labor it, because we were mostly what we were here to talk about but that that the sort of backlash against diversity does seem and it may just be because it's an election year and the personalities involved Does seems to be particularly harsh right now.
Speaker 2:It is ours. Yeah, again, it's typical.
Speaker 1:Yes there.
Speaker 2:We go out there, want to use it on as the Political platform, just like a critical race theory. Yes, so what? She was as well, but now that we have diversity, to you that bookie land, your tea is falling into the backspace, but it's still there. It's critical rest theory still there, except now before from very red mine, like it was maybe a year, and and I know one year one of the other.
Speaker 1:We mentioned about this notion of fitting in. We use people used to also talk about cultural fit, where people were slotted in into, into the right cultures it were that part of that notion of belonging is that we do have to expand that to, to get beyond some of these sort of as someone's narrow thinking that I think comes across a lot around cultures in organization.
Speaker 2:What expanded cultures. Usually, the culture of the organization is well based on the dominant Culture. We're now watching and then expand that so that the Colgate organization is Based on the people in that. So, now that the dominant culture and that's the problem that we've had and that's when I talk, colton, of clients and adults, people that's where I start the culture is one of the things that we need to address first right and so so in the sort of the environment where we're working in now, that key link between DDI and and being Really does focus, I think, on the belonging piece, the psychological safety.
Speaker 1:Is there any other sort of aspects of that, those two worlds that you think are particularly, you know, where there's no overlap? That's particularly important.
Speaker 2:The overlap is that we know that worthy equity, inclusion or Action things that people need to do. We need to be diverse and even get these different. Most people equity For me, make everybody put them on the same kind of level. Inclusion Can we bring it up and can we include these people?
Speaker 1:What the longing is a part of that, but it is different is not just an action, it's a feeling and we need to make sure that people in the organization we have understanding of how people in the organization leadership yeah, it is an odd, and odd aspects of work in that sense in it is that you say it is a feeling, so it becomes quite hard to sometimes, I think, to identify it to and to sort of measure in it in a way, because I just love to, love to measure things and because of discussion, we might go all, but it's definitely measurable, yes, yes. So how would you as a leader then, looking around at your team, what, what would you see as a sign that someone's struggling with their, with the human connection, the belonging side of things?
Speaker 2:Burnout, not performing a doubt at optimal level, trying to Find a way team that's invent what you need to do. Those all Areas I look at when I look at my team as a marine leader, when I look at my team right now hey, I'm okay, are you burned out? And I can usually just look it up and then the communication part on it. So to me, what's going on? It's not always a work problem. It can be a whole problem. That's for better than this. So you want to know why I asked. Communication is the key, whether you're an employee or a leader.
Speaker 1:Money is important there. You mentioned that that connecting as a leader both with the work and also the not what, the outside of the work piece you can't really belong, feel you belong at work unless you're belonging as a whole person. You can't. There isn't like a work bit of you that can belong in the workplace and then a personal bit that you're gonna put to one side which people don't need to worry about in terms of belonging. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:You want to bring the whole person to work. You, you want to be, you know, a person who feels like you belong at work. But when you go home you feel like, okay, now I have peace, I can go back to work tomorrow and do my job, because now all is here.
Speaker 1:It's just because it is, I think, an important aspect of well-being and it's something I have many Disputes with with people about this, but anyway, the, the who believe in integrating work and life. Right now, like I mentioned there, as a leader, you need to know about the, the employee as a worker, but also the outside work, those things. Obviously, what you do outside work Influence is what you do inside is that, but you do need to put put a kind of boundary between those. There is a work life balance being the phrase most people use. There is a danger, I think, that work just expands to fill the time and space available to it.
Speaker 2:Yes, there is what the thing is that people Need to be able to express themselves and need to be know that there's a point and if you're a leader any workplace, you want to know what your people have. All I do, because really it just might affect your vulnerable life. Leader at work Shouldn't know a little bit about what's going on in person in the life, because they're connected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't disconnect and it was one of the things that I think became pretty obvious when Covid hit and we all started working remotely and Suddenly you weren't turning up to work dressed in a suit and time Seeing at your assigned desk and being generally respectful to everyone in a certain place, in a certain way. Suddenly you were in your living room and the dog was coming from the back. There was that sense that the real life had knocked down the door to the office.
Speaker 2:It really did. But as an employee and as an employer, the work has to get done and everybody has to pitch it. It's just different. You know, go with it. They turned everything upside down. The work's gonna get done and, from what I understand and the research that I've seen, it did get done and it's still yeah nearing up.
Speaker 1:So the end of that conversation here, I thought maybe I would, we would return to this notion of Monocopsis and perhaps can you share a time when you felt, when you felt like that seal stranded on the beach, but that that would be valid.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I'm gonna go back to my military day. I feel Like I didn't belong. In my first months in military, there was still racial tension going on and they were Groups that were segregated, moving back and forth, and I thought about after my first four years I was gonna get up because this is not the place yet you not belong here. What I called my dad in New York and he said there are a lot of things that are worse than that. You need to stay there, I it, we need to figure it out and you need to bring people along with you, meaning create groups that are gonna help and other people along where you are. And that's what I did. I stopped down, I talked people just like me will feel like they didn't belong and I said, hey, what can you need to know to move forward?
Speaker 1:I remind you, when I first went to university, which is many years ago, and one of the introductory courses was on Albert Camus' book the letreanger, the outsider, so the archetypal person who feels they don't belong and they're not connected I remember the tutor saying yeah, it's funny, everyone in this institution walks around clasping their copy of Albert Camus the outsider and telling people that no one understands them, that they're disconnected from everyone, and yet we're all having the same experience. There is that, I think would it be fair to say that that experience of monocopsis can sometimes be illusory, and not in the sense you're not experiencing it, but that if you go out, go a bit more, stretch yourself a little bit, reach out to people, connect, that you'll find, in fact, there is a sort of a sea of belonging that you can navigate, if you, once you've jumped in. Is that?
Speaker 2:fair. Definitely, there's always people who can come there to help you belong. There are groups who people will feel just like you do and once you get to that point, all come together and say, okay, how can we belong to the larger group? I don't want to fit into the larger group, I don't want to say belong to the larger group, and that's, that was my goal and that's what I did when I was in this in learning.
Speaker 1:Great. I think with that we'll close. So nice points to close on. I look forward to seeing you in a few weeks in New York. We'll get to continue this conversation a little bit but also throw in some more voices into the thing of belonging. I think it's going to be a great, a great time. So really appreciate you taking time today to sit down with me and do this and do the best till we meet in New York in a few weeks.
Speaker 2:All right thank you very much for having me. Thank you. It's been amazing to see you all in that room. So much hope. See you guys, andrising.